Starting a Flooded car

[Glenn Butcher]

A rotary engine can become flooded. This can be caused by a number of things:

1. Engine is low on compression
2. If you move your car around without running it for long (i.e. running it for less than a few mins. each time).
3. Old/fouled spark plugs
4. Spark plugs that are too cold (see this related thread: Spark Plugs (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=264&referrerid=1))
5. Some other problem i.e. electrical/fuel etc. (not covered in this thread)


Usual symptoms are: Car was running fine, but suddenly won't start, or after some time of sitting around it won't start. Plugs will be completely wet when you take them out.


De-flooding steps :

1. Remove the fuel pump relay (UPDATE OCT-2003: REMOVE THE MAIN EGI FUSE)...
2. Remove the spark plugs (ensuring the spark plugs leads are away from the engine)...
3. Turn the engine over with the plugs out and the accelerator peddle wide open for 10 to 15 seconds...
4. Wait 10-15 minutes and repeat step 3. Or keep repeating this step until no more fuel sprays out of the spark plug holes...
5. Remove the plugs again and squirt some engine oil into each rotor housing through the spark plug holes (this will line the rotor housing with a thin film of oil, helping the apex seal - seal against the rotor housing, hence restoring compression)...
6. Put the clean plugs/(best to have a new set if you can) back in but do not wire up the spark plug wires...
7. Either manually turn the engine over by hand (from the pulleys) or rotate the motor with the accelerator peddle wide open for 10 to 15 seconds...
8. Re-install the fuel pump relay and spark plug wires.

Try to start it.

If it starts, keep the revs up - don't let it die. It will probably run quite rough for a while and after 30 - 60 seconds it should run on its own.

Be patient with it, you may have to repeat some of the steps a few times.


If you are continuously having problems with flooding, then it is most probably because the Compression is low - it could be engine re-build time. Have the compression checked by a proper rotary workshop - they will use a proper Rotary Compression
If you have any other experiences/comments, please feel free to add to this thread.

[Fish]

Something else that might be helpful to have about, is a set of jump leads. As this can drain the battery quickly.

The extra power from another engine that is running, gives that extra kick required at times to start a rotary.

Dan

[Glenn Butcher]

Thanks Dan! yes - for sure.

Also, if you have a manual - try and jump/clutch start it in 2nd gear. This will turn the engine over much faster than the starter motor can.

[MikeLMR]

another tip

it always happens when you least want it to !

e.g

pull into quick fit for a wheel balance, switch off car and go inside for a quote

come out to drive car into fitting bay as quick fit refuse to drive it (wimps!)

start car and back out of parking space then engine stalls while car is blocking in another customer

car floods and won't restart for 5 mins much to annoyance of the other customer and the amusement of the quick fit guys

car restarts rev to 3 thousand and drop the clutch = sideways and flames into fitting bay and quick fit guys no longer laughing but giving you a strange look and backing away

:rollin

[Paul-Tll]

OR not for the faint hearted a tow start, did this with mine before
the rebuild smoke,bang and back to life! (nearly took the back of the tow car out-not to mention the front of mine!
Paul..

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi Paul!

Yes - just find a hill! :) or a level road and get a couple people to push, make sure you use 2nd gear.

[Brett]

Just add my views and experience, a lot of restart problems are caused by a combination of wear (poor compression) on the housings and old, leaking injectors which continue to leak fuel into the housings for a while after switching off the engine. To combat this, I used to remove the EGi fuse from its case, turn the engine over a few times to force the fuel out of the housings, (doing it this way ensures only the fuel injectors are off, the oiling system remains on) then restart the engine.
You may also find that tipping a pint of two stroke oil in to your fuel tank once in awhile can help too.

[bnaellis]

Question for you gents, does starting the car not letting it warm up and shutting of then restarting again later and not having any problems means you have a good engine or that one was just lucky ?? Also Glen you stated in description below !!

2. If you move your car around without running it for long (i.e. running it for less than a few mins. each time).

Does this mean in general, or only from cold startup ??


rgds

Brian

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi Brian,

It would be more that you have a good engine, it is very difficult to flood a new / rebuilt engine.

I always try to avoid starting up a rotor and running it for a short time, specially with an old engine.

Because the other potential problem is carbon lock, again not common in a new / rebuilt engine. See this thread here for some info on "Carbon Lock" (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=125&referrerid=1)

[bnaellis]

Cheers Glen,
Did you get my pm last week ??

rgds

Brian

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi mate!

Just replied.

[Phranque]

It's threads like this that REALLY help folk like me who know very little about engines etc. Thanks all.
A question:
Brett mentions that "You may also find that tipping a pint of two stroke oil in to your fuel tank once in a while can help too."
I've seen ths hinted at here and there on various sites but what is the concensus? At present my oil pressure ( or to be accurate, my car engine's oil pressure, seems pretty good at over 4kg/cm² which is just over half way on the meter.
To oil or not to oil - that is the question - and how frequently is 'once in a while', please ???

Frank

[Wayne]

Hi Glenn,

I was wondering if you feel that a car that is just about to have it's engine rebuilt can always be started in your "how to" on starting flooded cars. Mine is supposed to be in for its rebuild now but on Saturday i could not get the car started to get it to Portsmouth. I may have flooded it in the process, so i removed the plugs, dried them and left them out overnight to help the excess fuel in the engine evaporate. Problem is she still will not start and it's looking lilke i may have to pay extortianate amounts to get her trucked from London to Portsmouth.

Do you think she would definatley start under a tow? or if i do the manual engine turn over that she might kick? thats the only part of the procedure i did not do ,but how important is it? and how do i do it?

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi Frank!

Putting the two-stroke oil in the fuel tank is quite a common thing with a rotary (hence why you have read that on other sites etc.). This either replaces the function of the Metering Oil Pump (MOP) or assists it.

The rotary engine injects oil into the rotor chamber to help with lubrication of the apex seals, and also to help compression. Have a read through this thread: http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=31&referrerid=1

Essentially it does not hurt to add the oil (don't add too much though), if your engine is old and you just want to give it a helping hand - add some pre-mix.

Usually a ratio of 100:1 (500mls of oil to 50 litres of fuel) is ok.

Best to use a non-synthetic 2 stroke oil, available from service stations (it is the same as the 2 stroke oil for 2 stroke motor bikes) and you can buy in 500ml containers.

On a racing engine, the MOP is not used - pre-mix oil is always added into the fuel tank.

Downsides:
1. It may smoke a little (not much really).

Upsides:
1. Helps the apex seals - prolonging the life of the engine.
2. It will smell great!


Chris Wilson (on this Forum) recommends adding the pre-mix for doing track days (also adding an octane booster). I would also recommend this - it just helps things along.

[Glenn Butcher]

Originally posted by Wayne
Hi Glenn,

I was wondering...

...Do you think she would definatley start under a tow? or if i do the manual engine turn over that she might kick? thats the only part of the procedure i did not do ,but how important is it? and how do i do it?


I think you would have a much better chance trying to start it, by a clutch start. Do you live in an area where you could try this? I don't like doing the tow start - but it may be your only option? depending on where you live.

When last was it running?

Do you know what is actually wrong with it? if it is Apex seal failure - you may struggle with it.

Let me know.

[Wayne]

Originally posted by gbutcher
I think you would have a much better chance trying to start it, by a clutch start. Do you live in an area where you could try this? I don't like doing the tow start - but it may be your only option? depending on where you live.

When last was it running?

Do you know what is actually wrong with it? if it is Apex seal failure - you may struggle with it.

Let me know.


Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the quick response, i take it by clutch start you mean getting some guys to push and then trying to turn her over? or do you just mean sticking her in second and giving it a go? my car has had a tow start before but the problem is i live in quite a busy area right near Walthamstow Tube and i may need to tow her somewhere quiter to be able to try this! Woodford is only a 2 mile drive and is very quiet.

I started her on the Friday to make sure she would go in the morning for the trip to Portsmouth and she started first time! but come Saturday morning i had no such luck! before that it was 3 weeks when i took her down there and although she was being a bit akward on srartups i had knowhere neat these problems!

The water seals have gone! and i am getting high amounts of pressure in the water system, which in turn is pushing the water out the overflow and then giving me continuous water problem!

Any idea's?

[Brett]

One good reason for adding the two stroke is that you can never be entirely sure the oiling system is working properly on an old engine, sometimes the wax pellet is simply defunct, and although you will still have respectable oil pressure, very little oil will be going into the engine at low revs, especially when idling, hence, adding some pre mix 2 stroke oil is usually a good idea if you have an old engine that your trying to coax a few extra miles from.

[Brett]

Heres another useful tip, when rebuilding a rotary, (I've only done 13B's) try to modify the oil control arm, it runs from the throttle linkage, down to the base of the engine, by shortening the length of this rod, either by making a newer, slightly shorter one, or by adding some washers to the bottom of it, you can ensure your rotary always runs richer on the oil, which as we know, can only be a good thing! You may need to be careful doing this, sa it will effect your emissions.

[Glenn Butcher]

Originally posted by Wayne
Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the quick response, i take it by clutch start you mean getting some guys to push and then trying to turn her over?...

...Any idea's?


I think you should be able to get it started with a clutch start.

In the early hours?

1. Get the car out on the road
2. Ignition on
3. Get someone/people to push you with it in neutral
4. When rolling at a couple of mph
4a. Clutch in
4b. Put it in second gear
4c. Pop the clutch out - if it starts, put the clutch straight in and keep reving the engine (don't let it die of course).

If it doesn't start - try again, going a bit faster.

If worst comes to worst, you could try a tow start - but it takes a little bit of skill
:)

[Martiny]

Hi Glen, all

On a 3rd Gen...

Removing the fuel pump relay does *N*O*T* repeat NOT stop the fuel
pumping, and therefore does not help you unflood it. If you have a
look at the wiring diagram, the relay just changes the voltage to the
pump by adding/removing a resistance in the circuit.

I think there is a fuse for the Injection system (EGI?) and if you
could remove THAT, that would stop fuel being injected.

Glen, if you concur, could you edit the very useful procedure at the start of this thread?

Thanks Martin

[BarryB]

Hi all,

to stop the fuel pump on 2nd gens there is a connector under a small access flap on the passangers side of the boot compartment. I have used the method of disconnecting this and cranking the engine until it starts. The engine then revs briefly until the residual fuel is used(unless you're REALLY quick to get round the back and plug the connector back together!) The engine should then start again with no problems with the connector back in place

This method has the advantage that it burns off the fuel in the engine, you dont need to take plugs out and it CANT flood when you restart because the fuel system isnt up to pressure immediately.

I even impressed the local Mazda mechanics with this trick when my car wouldnt start in their workshop.

Barry

[Martiny]

Barry, yep, thats true. Your method does work on a 2nd Gen. Sorry, my post should have said "On a 3rd Gen". I will go back and edit it if I can!

[Glenn Butcher]

Originally posted by Martiny
Hi Glen, all

On a 3rd Gen...

Removing the fuel pump relay does *N*O*T* repeat NOT stop the fuel
pumping, and therefore does not help you unflood it. If you have a
look at the wiring diagram, the relay just changes the voltage to the
pump by adding/removing a resistance in the circuit.

I think there is a fuse for the Injection system (EGI?) and if you
could remove THAT, that would stop fuel being injected.

Glen, if you concur, could you edit the very useful procedure at the start of this thread?

Thanks Martin


Hi Martin!

Thanks for this (sorry I haven't replied sooner). Do you know for sure if the Fuse will do the trick?

I suppose all you really need to do is have the engine turn over without fuel, ignition, etc. - if this fuse (can you specify - pic.?) and I'll post it up.

Cheers matey.

[BarryB]

Martin, I didnt mean to sound like I was contradicting or correcting you. What you say is true of 2nd gens too. They have the fuel relay across a resistor also.

2nd gens also have a fuse marked "EGI INJ", sounds more and more like the two generations are very similar in this respect. And removing this will also stop fuel being added to the engine to allow drying out.

My point to was to say how you COULD stop the fuel pump if need be and to add how I thought it might have an advantage over just stopping the injection system.

Cheers
Barry

[Martiny]

Ah, Barry I think we are in agreement! I also think that just disconnecting the fuel pump on a 2nd gen is best. This will allow the ignition to fire. The mixture will get leaner and leaner while you're cranking it, and it should eventually fire up. This will clean everything out. Then it should start fine again when you reconnect it.

Dont know where we could do this on a 3rg gen, though, so EGI fuse it is!

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi Martin - I updated the original thread (do you want anymore detail on it?).

[Martiny]

I think its fine, Glen, Thanks!

[Robin]

Just to add my two ha`porth to the great debate......

It took a while to defeat the flooding problem, but what has really worked well is -

Hotter plugs
Half a litre of two-stroke every 4th tankfull.
A switch put into the fuel relay. Simple and very effective. I always click the switch and let the engine die before turning ignition off. Starting, I just turn the switch on and start as normal. No problems since I put it in.
Yes, I know I really need a rebuild, but Santa`s late again.

Robin

[Robin]

Further to the fuel relay question - if disconnecting/putting a switch into the relay circuit doesn`t stop the fuel, how come the engine dies 2 seconds after the switch is hit? And why will it only fire (2nd Gen) when the switch is turned on again? I don`t know how useful this set-up is for flooded motors, but it certainly seems to help prevent it......

Robin

[BarryB]

Hi Robin

Sounds like a nifty idea to me.

I dont think anyone was disputing that disconnecting/putting a switch in the circuit would work. Its the fact that REMOVING the relay from its socket wont work 'cos there is a separate resistor elsewhere in parallel with it.

Barry

[Robin]

Barry,
Yes, what you say shouldn`t make sense, but studying the wiring diagram suggests that you`re quite right - a relay and an on/off switch aren`t always the same thing.
Anyway, the switch idea seems to work as a very simple precaution, especially when you`ve got short journeys (or a wife with the clutch control of a yew tree) to contend with. Also, (and I know that none of these ideas are new) the 100:1 two stroke thing does seem to make a difference with an older (mine`s got 75,000 on original motor) engine.
We live and learn.....

Robin

[skybusr34]

im a bit confused. this thread had been jumping between 2nd and 3rd gen rx7. in simple terms can i put a switch on the 3rd gen to stop the fuel pump. cheers

[andyrose]

After flooding my car I removed the plugs, squirted some oil in, removed fuel relay and fired her up. runs ok whilst stationary revs freely with no probs.
I let her warm up before taking her out for a spin, everything was fine until i went WOT and all she did was loose power and start popping n banging.
Before the great flood she was running really sweetly with no probs at all.
The engine used no oil/coolant so I assume its all ok.
Could it be that i havn't connected the ht leads tightly?
It only does it on WOT under heavy loads?
Advice much appreciated

Andy (3rd gen)

[dino]

hmm when my engine is warm if i turn it off and then start again within a few hours (so it's still warm) it jus floods. I turn her over bout 3 times then on the third or fourth twist of the key she starts but need to keep revs up. any ideas why it only does it when warm?

[Brett]

A common problem is that your injectors are leaking into the housing after you switch the engine off, hence you effectively have a flooded engine, this is magnified when everything is warmed up, after all you have cast end plates and Alu housings so any wear will now be at its most apparent, e.g. low compression and no combustion!

A short term fix is to remove the egi fuse and turn the engine over a few times before restarting from warm. But theres no escaping the fact that your gonna need a rebuild sooner rather than later, and I reccomend doing it sooner. Its a lot easier to be able to drive your car to a workshop rather than have to trailer it there.

Brett

[airmanuk]

Didn't we come to the conclusion that starting the car with the accelerator pedal pushed to the floor cuts off the fuel?

This is what is recommended in the handbook for the FD.

Martin, you suggested this to me and it worked, for which I was truly grateful, as the idea of trying to get to the spark plugs, removing them to cook in the oven didn't fill me with joy.

How's Meryl doing?

Regards

Neil

[rx7aberdeen]

Believe it or not if you pour 3/4 of a can of coke directly into the inlet manifold pf a flooded rx7 and turn it over the car will start did it myself and witnessed what i thought was a miracle! has to be coke, cant be diet and has to be an rx7 to work!!!!!!!!!

[scooby_si]

How does that work then? I know coke is good at cleaning stuff like toilets, no really, so could it have negative effects on any carbon build ups or such like?
Si (intreged but paranoid.....<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_4.gif' border=0></a>)

[scooby_si]

OK seems my car has now flooded at the gagrage, suffice to say it hasn't been used on any long runs :rollin did warn them not to turn it on for short journeys (2 garages on opposite sides of road kinda thing) but anyway.
Now presuming it doesn't just start up nicely tomorrow <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_10.gif' border=0></a> can we confirm if best bet is to try clutch starting it from the word go, although not a lot of nice long streets to try this on, or should removal of plugs be first step?
Have we concluded whether foot to floor is sufficient to cut fuel or does some fuse or wotever definately need unplugging & if so can someone either show me on a pikky or use good english (i know not normally sumin http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/wink/smily012.gif i either do or request) exactly what needs unplugging from where?
Help retard on board but this muppet needs sum good info, not that all isnt already, on exactly what bits to pull from where (plugs i just about have located :rollin lol)
Only spare plugs i have are 7's will just putting these in leading side help/work once deflooded?
Cheers
Si (too moist for my liking <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4_2_1.gif' border=0></a>)

[rx7aberdeen]

55p can of coke save yourself all the hassle trust me it works and there has been no side effects just let the engine run for a few minutes after the car starts to burn off the coke

[scooby_si]

may try that if it gets desperate but as i say still cant say as it sounds too tempting given the things that stuff can eat thru.....
Looks like mine may not actually be flooded as it was just one of the numpties having disconnected the battery <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_49.gif' border=0></a> & it had got too flat to start it kinda thing, at least that's what i'm hoping will get some spare 9's in just incase thou.........
Si

[tailz]

Hi Glenn,

This will sound a really dumb question, but here goes...

When you earlier advised to add some 'pre-mix' oil to your tank to help things along, am I right in assuming that you simply get the amount of oil needed in the 100:1 ratio and add some petrol to it and pour it in?

Please no-one laugh if it is as dumb as I imagine it might be!

With the amount of problems I seem to have, the last thing I need to do is to damage it through ignorance!

Thanks

[Draco]

Also another newbie here
it was stated that you can put 2-stroke oil in hte petrol tank every 4th tank full.
I do see the benifits for this but can you answer a few questions for me please!

1, does it effect your emmisions for a MOT?

2, will it damage the CAT?

3, will it oil up the plugs?

thanks
Chris

[yonner]

u dont need to do this unles the omp has been removed for cars that run high end ecus like motec because it cannot control the omp u could do it if u wanted but there is no real reason why it wont damge ur cat but it might give out some more emitions

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi guys,

Sorry I haven't replied on this one.

My recommendation for adding oil into the fuel tank (pre-mix) was based on if you are running your car on a track day. The original thread is out there somewhere.

But when adding the pre-mix, yes it is as simple as working out how many litres of fuel to the pre-mix ratio, e.g. 1 litre of pre-mix to 100litres of fuel, so 500mls to 50 litres.

I wouldn't recommend you use it normally, as it could potentially foul your spark plugs.

Yonner - MoTeC controls the OMP now, the software had been written some time ago.

[Brett]

I believe I posted on this thread about adding some two stroke mix to the fuel.

The reasons/conditions I suggested using it in were thus:-

1) Old/worn engine on its last legs that you're trying to coax a few more miles out of. (Reason for this is that quite often on the 13B egi the oiling system packs up or starts to lose movement its at this point the engine life goes into exponential decay)
2) Running in a new engine, I've added oil usually at about 80:1 for the first couple of tank fulls.

Its not a fix, its just there to help you out when things are going :censored::censored::censored::censored: up, I cant really see a reason for running like it day to day.
Like Glenn says only other reson would be for a trackday session.

[hmltnangel]

Hi everyone, still on my quest for an RX7. Seem to have found the perfect beast for me although today - 2 days before im picking it up I got a call saying that there was a problem with the car. Apparently when the cars warm it sometimes doesn't like to start. Even occasionaly when cold it has a few probs. Any suggestions?

Apparently the car had a new engine suplied by Rotekniks about 10k miles ago (a year ago) and has generally been fine. It recently had its plugs leads and fuel pump changed but thats not solved the problem. Should I steer clear of this one or what?

[Glenn Butcher]

hmmmm, could be anything. I would get it checked by a rotary place - a compression test would be a good thing also.

Could be leaking injectors/wiring problem/low compression etc. etc.

[babz_audio]

this is one interesting thread...i should be gettin my rx7 (3rd gen) end of december (santa is bringing it round for me :D )
its got 43,00 miles on the clock. has been tuned a little (single turbo, ecu, intercooler, exhuast)...

would you recommend that i add oil into the fuel as a precaution or not?

im a complete newbie, so be gentle and explain as basic as possible,..;)

[Charlie]

Hi

Over the past three days I have gone through the starting a flooded FD procedure 6 times even down to putting the plugs in the oven! I charge the battery before every attempt as I don't have the means to roll it down a hill to start it and it still doesn't start. It was starting fine until last Friday which was very frosty and I had originally put it down to that. It probably needs a rebuild and has done 35000 miles. I thought that it could be the plug leads as the plugs are only 2000 miles old.

Any advice would be very helpful.

Thanks

[Brett]

I take it you have anti freeze in with the water? If the water has frozen and damged the housings then you could well have zero compression, does it even sound like its going to catch?

[Charlie]

Hey Brett

Thanks for the reply. At the moment it has no antifreeze because I have been doing the temporary o-ring fix with blockweld from the "Lightning in a world of thunder" website until I do the rebuild in a couple of months or so. It hasn't been immensely cold in London and when I turn over the engine with the EGI fuse and the spark plugs out it sounds like there is compression but I really must pick up a compression tester. It doesn't want to catch at all apart from a couple of feeble attempts which makes me think that it's just not firing. The o-ring fix is going fine by the way (I am touching some wood)! I can't understand it because it was running fine until last Friday.

[Martiny]

Originally posted by Charlie
Hey Brett

The o-ring fix is going fine by the way (I am touching some wood)! I can't understand it because it was running fine until last Friday.

I cant help but think this is related. If there is Oring leaking, then water will be getting into the chamber, preventing the plugs from firing.

To see if its firing, take off a plug lead, put a plug in it, and rest the body of the plug on someting earthed, top of the engine, maybe. Then turn it over and you should see the spark in the plug.

[ash]

Just wanted to say thanks for this Sticky thread! My 3rd Gen was flooded on Sunday morning, think it was due to me starting the car and moving it 3 foot and switching the engine off straight away. Anyway, did the procedure of remove EGI fuse, drain battery, floor accelerator and turn for 20 seconds. Did this 4 times, and then replaced the fuse and hey presto the car started no problem, a bit of blue smoke which has all cleared up now - not bad for a car with 95600Km and original engine!

Ash

[Tintin]

One thing I found out today is that WOT DOESN'T stop fuel being injected with an apexi

Sorry if this has been mentioned already only skimmed through the thread

I used to use this all the time and now can't :(

[Glenn Butcher]

To a degree Spectre (as the engine is essentially the same - but newer!?!?), I have heard of a few RX-8's flooding out there.

You having problems with yours?