Just a reminder why our troops are in Iraq....

[Ianmcurtis]

After watching the very good Batman 'Dead End' movie as posted here, I did some browsing on ifilm.com and found this. It's old but at #38 in the top 100 ifilm clips!

I don't wish to start any political strife, so make/think of it what you will. It just reminded me that Blair said he was going to give the British public the evidence of WMD, the reason for going into Iraq, but I can't recall ever seeing that evidence. Perhaps I've missed some important news?

I know that many British troops and others are being killed and wounded to date though.........all since hostilities ended :(


George Bush. Mistaken

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2688839?htv=12

[oldone]

The American presidents have never been on my popularity list,even less so GB Jnr.They will interfere in,incite and collaborate with the worlds running.They have an agenda to destabilse and profit from others misfortunes.America and Britain have almost the most sofisticated Intelligence gathering abilities of the world,yet with all their sofisticatation they could not even present or fabricate the evidence they sought in Iraq.
Our PM has been caught up the in the smooching session with GB Jnr and he cannot get out of the situation cos GB Jnr blows smoke up his ass and the PM loves the exposure he gets, plus, he gets bombs placed on his subways for his involvement.He sends our young boys to Iraq,ILL EQUIPPED AND NOT FULLY PREPARED.....to their death.Yet in the same breath he will prosecute the police officers who were defending us in the subways.They were operating in a state of emergency (war situation).
I have life long comrades in arms serving in Iraq at the moment (mercs),and the intel I get back from them is shocking....it relates to the ill equipment and conditions our boys are forced to serve in.The private contractors who are funded by GB Jnr are far better equipped............answer that Tony Blair.

[Rixio]

Ian...your avatar somes it up really

[iaint]

I read a very interesting article on the nature of the US $, oil and empires recently. It states that the real reason for the war was not to have the oil directly but to guarantee that oil MUST be purchased using the $. A number of Arab countries were beginning to trade oil in euros as had Iraq pre-sanctions. All those countries have now reverted to trading in $s.

When the US runs low on cash it prints more dollars and, as gold is no longer the global backing for a country's wealth (ever since the US defaulted on a number of gold-supported payments), oil is now the global backing for economies.

This is one of the reasons that the US isn't using it's current reserves and is prepared to pay the price OPEC demands - it know that in the long run it'll control the world economy.

Certaily an interesting read, I'll see if I can dig out a URL for it...

[Freddy]

Ian what you say is very interesting. See if you can find that link. :)

[Ianmcurtis]

^ Please do Iain. I'll get great pleasure posting it/link on rx8web.com Some of those guys are well into political bickering, it would probably surprise some here what a couple of them have posted in response to stuff I've said on there, (allies!) although my err, reputation for winding some of them up is exagerated imo. Like I care anyway ;-).

Suffice to say I posted the ifilm link over there too :-) :-).

[Freddy]

Looks like I'll be signing up to the rx8web club too. ;)

[gsb876]

I'm no neither side but you dont have to look long to realise its all wrong and Mr G Bush is a few short of a full box like :3Confused

One thing though in America the president is not the most powerful its congress so all he does has to go through congress, easy to place all blame on that fool but theres others to blame too :yes

I guess the worse thing is our boys and girls are there surviving and they will probably never know the whole truth about why they are there :(

[iaint]

Link to article in Energy Bulletin:

http://energybulletin.net/12125.html

[Ianmcurtis]

Cheers Iain. There's a lot to read in there for sure!!

Also, at the bottom of the page is a further link, see below

http://www.energybulletin.net/2913.html if the link works.

[Ianmcurtis]

Here's my latest posting on rx8web re Iran, its in the 'In The News' section. The thing that bemuses me is that, until you dissagree with a particular political view, they mostly seem decent folk!

BTW, there are appropriate smilies in there, but they've not copied over.

rx8web below;

I appreciate that some of you folk prefer to ignore me, thats fine by me . It's just another sign of losing the argument!

Here's a couple of links, you guy's like links right? Seems you certainly post plenty of them .

http://energybulletin.net/12125.html

http://www.energybulletin.net/2913.html

Nice find from a mate here in the UK don't you think

[davegttph1]

As much as I dislike what Bush and Blair have done with taking us to war I do find alot of the chopping of that original link poor. We have been given lots of rubbish fed to us by Bush haters trying to link things that happeneds with 9/11 with Iraq when in fact they are totally seperate issues, Afganistan was attacked as the 9/11 backlash, its nothing o do with Iraq which is what alot of that video relates to.

I didnt agree with attacking Iraq like we did, it was wrong and there were alterior motives for Bush, that I do agree with but now we are there I strongly feel we have a responsibility to Iraq and its people to put right what we did wrong, we have destroyed most of a country and to walk out now would be more wrong that the original attack.

The soldiers deserve better but in all honesty this is what they sign up for, to be ordered by their country to serve and protect (OK protecting isnt coming into this at the minute but theyre certainly serving) Its a job and thats what they signed up for. The conditions are another arguement though.

[Ianmcurtis]

Hi Dave,

Yes, I agree that there's been a lot of BS and lies from the respective leaders and that folk will take political sides. I don't regard myself as a Bush or Blair hater but I do remember the reasons we were given for going into Iraq and to date it seems to me the British people were lied to. Mr Bush is going to figure heavily in this if for no other reason that Mr Blair said the same things alongside him when they both gave the reason.

Your point regarding our troops is valid, I was a sergeant in the Royal Air Force and orders are orders. Doesn't make it right that troops die off the back of lies though, let alone to be sent out with crap equipment to add insult to injury.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Newera]

I have to agree, I believe the real reason the Americans went to war with Iraq was because Sadam was one of the people who was pushing hard for oil to be paid for in Euros rather than US dollars.

The day that US dollars no longer need to be bought in order to purchase oil will be the start of a devaluation of the dollar that will probably surprise most. Congress knew this right from the beginning...

There are theories that the whole 911 thing was staged and rumours of this were out right from the start.

Seen Farenheit 911?

Where was that plane that was supposed to have hit the pentagon? There never was a plane, but a rocket, it seems... And why is Osama Bin Laden still not caught?
Perhaps he was never meant to be caught.... Even his family were allowed to leave the States freely after 911. There never were any WMS either.

It's amazing how many people will believe the media without question. Time to realise the media's used to make us believe what those in power want us to think and start reading between the lines.

[Freddy]

Go to bed Miguel; it's past bedtime. ;)

You're right, it is all media driven. Tell joe public something over and over again and eventually they will believe. Most do not bother reading in to history and over months these will forget and only remember what the media pushed at the time of the incident(s). Most of the tabloids dont help the situation either.

There never was a plane, being a Pilot I do question the blackboxes. It is almost impossible to find them in a state where they are barely readable. These boxes can withstand an enourmous amount of force and pressure.

Gurj, you're right about congress. However, congress is pretty much driven by powerful institutions based around Capitol Hill. These lobby congress heavily until their desired result is achieved.

That invasion was never warranted by the promises and reasons given. Instead the US, UK and other supporters destroyed a country which oozed heritage, intellect and sights worth visiting since the 11th Century.

:reallymad

[Newera]

Go to bed Miguel; it's past bedtime. ;)


Mum said I could stay up late tonight :D :D :chat

Was talking to an ex new york trader last week, who was saying he's been doing pretty well from buying gold, holding it in safety deposit, then selling.
I think a lot of people would like to see the US dollar devalue. Wonder what the £ will do if the Sh*t hits the fan...

[oldone]

Never mind selling other goods,sell your skills and you can make $ 1000.00 per day in Iraq at the moment,deposit off shore,in a few months you have a good sum tax free,just stay away from the US and UK troops and stay alive..........if you are CHOSEN then you make $2000.00 a day.....everybody profits from war...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ianmcurtis]

^ Everyone except dead folk ;-). But I get your drift oldone :-).

[fdman]

Dear All,
I think it might also be timely to remind ourselves that:
1) Iraq is no longer a fascist dictatorship.
2) The Kurdish minority are no longer subject to the genocidal.
fascist oppression of Saddam Hussein and do no longer require
the protection of a NATO no-fly zone.
3) The Marsh Arabs in the south are no longer the subject of a policy of
genocide. The reclamation of the marshes drained by Saddam Hussein
is now underway.
4) Iraq is now a democracy.
5) Women are now emancipated.
6) The elected President of Iraq (a representative of the democratic left)is a Kurd.
7) Iraq is now able to determine its own own future under democracy.
8) The fascist dictator of Iraq will be called to account for genocide.

Those members who noted the Palestinian elections today may reflect on
the fact that the Middle East now has three democracies..Israel, Iraq and
Palestine. With the support of coalition forces the fledgling democracy in
Afghanistan will withstand an anticipated Taliban insurgency.
With the withdrawal of Israel from the Gaza Strip there is hope that the political situation may permit the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. Israel may have justifiable reservations in respect of the entry of
Hamas into political dialogue, but there will be no peace without the entry
of this and other militant groups into the political process; and with Israel guaranteed its rightful security.
The only contribution of Mr Michael Moore to democracy in Iraq is a deeply flawed film. British soldiers and coalition forces gave their lives, and those of us on the democratic left are not the only ones who will be eternally grateful for their ultimate sacrifice.
fdman

[oldone]

With the withdrawal of Israel from the Gaza Strip there is hope that the political situation may permit the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. Israel may have justifiable reservations in respect of the entry of
Hamas into political dialogue, but there will be no peace without the entry
of this and other militant groups into the political process; and with Israel guaranteed its rightful security.

fdman

Yes, we are so sure that there will be peace in the Middle East and that Hamas will stick to being a political party.........that is why I have one son serving in the Israeli Defence Force and another son leaving on the 2 Feb...... :rolleyes:

[iaint]

fdman - I don't think the argaument is particularly about Iraq being better or worse than before. Clearly (to my mind and takeing the huge problems into account) it's better for many Iraqi people than before.

The real issue is the reasoning and motovation behind it. the lie we're told by our policicos and managed media.

If we went into Iraq to right wrongs and free the oppressed then fine. A worth cause and might have gaines decent support. Of course, if that were the case then we wouldn;t stop there. It's be Mugabe next, or Cambodia. What about China? Half of africa? If it's right then surely the consequences don't matter - one has to do the right thing?

I truly object to our leaders carrying out this war in the name of freedom where freedom has nothing to do with it. It's a war based on the US requirement of global economic domination and through that political domination.

As for our position in this, will the US remeber our unfailing support? Will they allow us some piece of the pie? Sure they will. Welcome to the 51st State.

Y'all have a nice day now.

[gsb876]

Fdman, very good points you have made,

Alas if the invasion was due to inhumane condition i ask you why did no one bat an eye lid when Zimbabwe had some serious unsettlement ?

Possibly because for the USA there was no gain to get involved you think ?

[Ianmcurtis]

Dear All,
I think it might also be timely to remind ourselves that:
1) Iraq is no longer a fascist dictatorship.
2) The Kurdish minority are no longer subject to the genocidal.
fascist oppression of Saddam Hussein and do no longer require
the protection of a NATO no-fly zone.
3) The Marsh Arabs in the south are no longer the subject of a policy of
genocide. The reclamation of the marshes drained by Saddam Hussein
is now underway.
4) Iraq is now a democracy.
5) Women are now emancipated.
6) The elected President of Iraq (a representative of the democratic left)is a Kurd.
7) Iraq is now able to determine its own own future under democracy.
8) The fascist dictator of Iraq will be called to account for genocide.

Those members who noted the Palestinian elections today may reflect on
the fact that the Middle East now has three democracies..Israel, Iraq and
Palestine. With the support of coalition forces the fledgling democracy in
Afghanistan will withstand an anticipated Taliban insurgency.
With the withdrawal of Israel from the Gaza Strip there is hope that the political situation may permit the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. Israel may have justifiable reservations in respect of the entry of
Hamas into political dialogue, but there will be no peace without the entry
of this and other militant groups into the political process; and with Israel guaranteed its rightful security.
The only contribution of Mr Michael Moore to democracy in Iraq is a deeply flawed film. British soldiers and coalition forces gave their lives, and those of us on the democratic left are not the only ones who will be eternally grateful for their ultimate sacrifice.
fdman


Hi mate,

I had said in my first post that I did not want to start any political strife and that still stands.

The content of your reply is slightly off topic and really seems to raise issues outside of the reasons we were all given for sending our troops into Iraq. Blair and his supporters have managed to avoid showing us the proof of WMD as he's promised, period.

As is always the way, the media move on and cover other important stories, like for example the Sven thing :eek: . This lets our political leaders off the hook and people (we all do it) forget. My post was simply a reminder.

I'm not sure where you are going with your "us on the democratic left.......eternally grateful......" blah, blah, blah.

Unfortunately, if our troops had not been sent to Iraq on the back of lies, perhaps some would not be dead or wounded now? Well, not in Iraq of course.

Oh, and just a reminder, I'm ex Royal Air Force so don't even go there :Thumbs-up

:cheers

Ian.

[davegttph1]

But who has forgot? I thought Blair and Bush have admitted to being mistaken about WMD? could have sworn they openly said they got it wrong even though they still stand by they did the right thing.

[Ianmcurtis]

Hi Dave,

I'm not certain of what exactly those two have said, there's been so much bs. Perhaps they have said something along the lines that they 'got it wrong', and yes, I do think they have said they stand by there actions. They would say that.

Surely though, if you are correct and they have said they got it wrong, I can't see how that makes it right. It just makes the 'lie' that the evidence of WMD would be seen by all that much worse. How could they tell us that the WMD WERE there and all of a sudden they were wrong! Hmm, what's that smell..............

I'm not after getting into a, "We had to rid Iraq of Sadam" debate as I agree with that aspect, it's just a pity that they didn't tell the world that was their reason (or what ever the truth was). Perhaps that's because such a reason was known to be unacceptable, especially to the Arab nations? I'm just speculating.

Even if the video clip footage is edited to suit a particular political view, it doesn't alter the fact that we were told several times that WMD was the reason for attacking Iraq. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.

As for asking "But who has forgot"? Seemingly quite a few folk and not least Blair and Bush.

I hope I've jogged a few memories.

Cheers,

Ian.

[davegttph1]

What I mean by when they stand by it was the right thing to do, they mean that for the people of Iraq have a better life and freedom. In many ways I agree with although the way they attacked the country and poor reasoning is really poor. As Gurj says nobody feels the need to go to Zimbabwe to make their life better. People in power will always want to do something that benefits themselves, we are mere mortals and cant change anything on the scale theyre capable of doing and it seems the thread has run its course.

IMO naturally ;)

[Ianmcurtis]

^ No probs Dave.

Perhaps the thread has run it's course, every thing comes to an end.

"Reminding" accomplished ;) .

:cheers

[ro284]

Well i thought that saddam spooked everone in the first place by attacking Kuwait! Then he said the world would be consumed with fire if he was attacked, and given the attacks on his own people you could argue that it would have been irresponsible not to take his threats seriously, i don't think hoping he would go away and to do nothing would have been an option either, he appeared to be a weapon of mass destruction on his own, it would have been daft to underestimate his threats and capabilities, and it would have been wreckless to go off half :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed! as then the world would be asking why didn't the yanks (with us in tow) do more or, forewarned is forearmed, ignoring that could have been disastrous for other countrys, but i wonder if he would not have attacked Kuwait again! i'm sure he wouldn't really, what you reckon,
just my 2p
Bob

[Ianmcurtis]

Hi Bob.

Yeh, Saddam is (note I say is, not was) a sick, evil bar-steward who's threats of 'Mother of all wars' turned out to be full of s*it and big talk, when dealing with folk who are able to defend themselves (USA, UK etc). Kuwait proved that for sure.

Interseting that you mention Kuwait, as I have never understood why Bush Snr didn't err, "sort" Saddam first time, very strange. How come the best Saddam could do was send some Scud (?) missiles to Israel if he had what he, and others said he had the capability of sending, seems odd too. How come none of that stuff has ever been found then? Glad you mentioned Kuwait, I'd not considered that ;-).

Perhaps after the 9/11 atrocity and no UBL to be found in Afganistan, Bush Jnr decided/was advised, to take out Saddam as a token to the US people and because his dad didn't do it first time? Again, just speculation on my behalf.

I may be wrong again and I do accept what you are saying mate, but for me the link to Kuwait and what has happened after 9/11 seems tenuous, unless you are suggesting Saddam was involved in 9/11? Perhaps he was, I don't know.

One thing I do know and why I started this thread, as yet no WMD have been found of the like we were told existed.

Cheers,

Ian.

[ro284]

(quote)
as I have never understood why Bush Snr didn't err, "sort" Saddam first time, very strange, ian,
I’m with you there Ian, just imagine how much would have been avoided if Bush senior had finished the job when he had the chance then, and I guess it would have been on Bush junior’s agenda to finish the job for his father at some time, but that moment in history was lost, had his father done what he should have done there would have been no need to have gone to war in Iraq at all, and in the years since Kuwait, so many innocent Iraqi citizens would not have been killed by the dictator, It was disastrous that Bush senior did not finish the job, in so many ways, so many many lives lost, Iraq is destabilised and will take many many years to recover from a war (if it ever does) which should have been made un-necessary, there seems to be terrorists from other country’s appearing in Iraq, killing people, and so much hate from the Arab world and other knock on affects, But I think OBL had his own agenda also, whether linked to Iraq or saddam we may never know, as with a terrorist mentality any excuse to try and justify sacrificing innocent people will do!
(quote)
How come the best Saddam could do was send some Scud (?) missiles to Israel if he had what he, and others said he had the capabilit of sending, seems odd too. How come none of that stuff has ever been found then? Ian,

Well I’m surprised nothing has been found too, my point is if a dictator says he has weapons, and is only using scuds, you have to assume he does have the weapons and the intention and capability, and then strike first, but then we did find a rocket launcher supplied by this country before Kuwait I think, But sometimes the threat of such weapon’s is enough to manipulate and control! And if a leader? Of a country gasses his own people, you should not assume that he has not got much gas or scuds or even nuclear weapons, if he had them I am sure he would of used them as soon as he could, as you say he also attacked Israel, as well as Kuwait, The intention was there, and he could well have had something to do with 9/11 as he didn’t have WMD,
I think you hit the nail on the head with Bush Snr, if only that opportunity had not been missed, the entire world would be a better place now,
3 powerful words INTENTION, and LOST OPPORTUNITY
Bob

[Ianmcurtis]

Cheers for your input Bob, I really appreciate it :-). I believe we are both on the same side on this one and tbh, I think all of the posts in the thread have there own validity, so thanx to all for not getting personal and keeping it real.

Yet again we on MRC have shown a mature and respectful attitude can be achieved, for the main part ;-).