Aftermarket traction control system?

[Tim Oldland]

Afternoon all,

I'm considering fitting a Racelogic Traction Control system to the Rex, to make it a bit less of a nightmare over the winter.

The system is around £550, and looks pretty interesting as you can vary the level of interference, down to none at all.

The website says you can fit it to any car with electronic fuel injection and ABS, so i'm assuming that includes Rotaries, but i'm awaiting an email back from them to confirm this.

Has anyone looked into this, or fitted it to theirs?

Any help gratefully appreciated.

Tim

[nikp]

I guess it identifies slip levels for the rear wheels using the abs 'cogs'. I wouldn't have thought that the type of engine has anything to do with it as all it needs to do is do a similar job as a rev limiter does: cut off fuel, retard ignition when wheel spin is identified.

[Tim Oldland]

Yep, thats what i thought.

Just wondering if anyone has tried it on here....

[TRex]

No experience in the 7's.. But most us chaps in the mkiv Supra club use/used it and believe in it..
I've sampled it several times and it is quite good... The race logic one I'm on about.

Personally, my traction control is my 'right foot....' ;)

[nikp]

I quite enjoy the little squirms the 7 does. Good fun! And to be honest, even with traction control, you can still throw your car into the bushes by going to fast round a corner.

[GeckoGareth]

Tim - I've got the system sat in a box waiting to get fitted!

I spoke to racelogic for some time and did a bit of research before getting it and it should work on the rotary no problem. It monitors the ABS sensors and on detecting slip it cuts the spark so no more power from engine = no more slip.

You can dial in how much slip from 30%-0% the system will allow before it cuts in. My system also has launch control :) Will be looking forward to giving it a try when it's installed.

Quite a few FD's in the US running with no probs although there is a few who have tried to attribute it to engine failure. It seems that if it's installed correctly then there shouldn't be probs.

Hope that helps.

Gareth

[Tim Oldland]

Cheers Gareth, i think i'd just go for the standard set-up without launch control, but its good to know someone else will be trying it out.

I may be getting it fitted in a couple of weeks, i'll let you know how i get on!

Its true that you can always bin your car, but this system would have stopped me binning it due to diesel on a wet roundabout.... :D

There's no substitute for a decent driver and a bit of nouse.....

[sdminus]

I think the prob with the system is how it controls the engine after speaking to a friend who had one a few years back. I think it messes with the injector pulse and hard cuts the ignition. Not best when it goes wrong. It does use the ABS sensors.

Good luck boys

Scott

[Warthog]

Scott, think you are on the money there mate. When I asked about that system at Reworx I was told to forget it, rotary engines don't like it. So I did till now. :wiggle

[sdminus]

Scott, think you are on the money there mate. When I asked about that system at Reworx I was told to forget it, rotary engines don't like it. So I did till now. :wiggle


Not sure what you mean mate. Somebody who i respect gave that info . He told me the full story and i would never touch it. But there are ways to do it :3gears-lh

Are you really gonna bother with it. The fastest guys in the us dont use it and some of them get 1.6 sec 60fts. some even 1.4 sec in stock fd's

Scott

[Warthog]

I ment even talking about the subject. I wouldn't fit it if it was free. :eek:

[Fish]

Might be worth doing a little search on this, as this stuff has been talked about before. It was also discussed in great length on the RX7Club forums.

I dont think if was a good idea from memory.

Fish

[sdminus]

I ment even talking about the subject. I wouldn't fit it if it was free. :eek:


Argh I C :rollin Me neither mate

Scott

[Tim Oldland]

Thing is, you can have all the bravado in the world, but if it makes my FD easier to drive on a daily basis through the winter months then its a bonus and i'll take it.

The bloke at Racelogic has said that they've fitted it to 2 RX7's on the continent, and they've had no problems with it. He's offered to fit the system for free if i go to their HQ, so i'll probably do that.

Of course, it may have to be afetr xmas now, bloody xmas presents.......

[Fish]

Traction in an FD or any performance vehicle for that matter comes down to one thing.

How heavy you use the right foot.

Fish

[Bobfish]

FD traction control - right foot.
FD stability control - arms.

Dont mean to sound like an ass - but IMHO if your worried about wheel spinning in the wet with your FD, you shouldnt have one. I bought my FD because its the last of its kind - a pure drivers car, one that requires skill to drive. MY favourite game is driving my car in the wet. If you want something that drives itself, get an evo or a scooby.

I wouldnt recommend a traction control system either - there are two ways that it can work, either cutting fuel or cutting /retarding ignition. Cutting fuel is BAD, period. Cutting/retarding ignition is not so bad but with motors as sensitive as rotaries i wouldnt go spending 600 nicker on an unproven product when you can do the same job with your foot.

[Tim Oldland]

Don't mean to sound like an ass? Well you do i'm afraid, with this phrase:

"IMHO if your worried about wheel spinning in the wet with your FD, you shouldnt have one"

I bought an FD for the same reasons as you - its a pure drivers car, and yes, because its not easy to drive, it takes skill. Which is why most of the time the traction control system would be off. I would use it when its torrential rain, icy, snowy or the like, where no amount of skill or restraint or self control can stop the inevitable happening sometimes.

And if the £600 system saves me from one crash alone, its worth it IMHO.

Frankly i don't care whether you think i'm a pansy by fitting it, the only thing i'm worried about it whether it will damage the car.

If there's even a chance it will, i won't fit it, its that simple.

So lets keep it to the technical comments please, not a 'my :censored::censored::censored::censored:'s bigger than yours' type discussion...

[Fish]

Traction control wont stop you crashing, it just helps for quick getaways.

Fish

[Bobfish]

i second what fish says, and if you look at the second part of my post tim, i expressed my technical opinion as well.

Im not one to :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and not offer advice, if i feel i dont have anything valuable to add i dont post.

TCS does not stop you crashing, it stops you wheelspinning. If you want to use it when its torrential rain, icy, snowy or the like, then traction control is NOT going to help you. The only thing it will do is stop you wheel spinning, and its easy to keep the car going in a straight line even when you are wheel spinning. The thing that is going to make you spin out in those conditions is the ice and snow, not wheelspin. If your worried about wheelspin, use your right foot less!

Im sorry, what i meant by you shouldnt have an FD is if your worried about wheelspin, why not get a 350z or something else that comes with it as standard?

the ONLY reason i didnt get something newer over the FD is because is DOESNT Have traction control, newer cars are superior in almost every aspect (Reliability, fuel consumption, running and maintainance costs)

Your telling me you bought an FD for this reason but now you want to fit traction control? riiiiigght.

IMO if you have an RX7 and you want to drive it in the ICE, you need to get yourself a second car. I would drive my RX7 in snow and ice, but ONLY to have some fun on the slippery surface. You couldnt do that with TCS. Is your RX7 your only car?

[james01uk]

Please note

TRACTION CONTROL DOES NOT WORK IN ICE OR SNOW.

IT USES THE BRAKING SYSTEM THEREFORE ONLY MAKES THINGS WORSE

BELIEVE IT OR NOT THIS IS TRUE!

[GeckoGareth]

James, this system has a setting for ice, it take response from the brake system but at no point does it activate the brakes, it only decreases power from the engine to the wheels to stop the spin.

Some fair points raised, I know for a fact that I wouldn't have binned my first rex had it has this system installed, yes it was my fault that I crashed that day but that aside the TC system would have prevented it.

From the research I did, it seemed to be all down to the fitting of the system and being setup for the rotary that made the difference between it working with no engine trouble and it being attributed to an engine going bang. In the end I made the informed decision that I would be confident in it not causing problems so long as it was set up correctly. I can't remember what the important setting on the system was that needs to be set for a rotary but the information is about if you look.

The Racelogic system has been fitted to a few FD's as far as I was aware. In fact when I was speaking to Racelogic last year they informed me that one of their directors had it on an FD during the development and saw no problems.

Best of luck Gareth. :)

[james01uk]

ok fair enough
i stand corrected. I think.

i have never used a traction system which coped in icy conditions yet but doesnt mean to say they arent out there.

Why would anyone want to risk engine failure for such a device (especially a modded engine)

I think 600 quid would be better off spent on a skid pan course teaching you to control your car better.

hope that doesnt sound rude!

[iaint]

ok fair enough
i stand corrected. I think.

i have never used a traction system which coped in icy conditions yet but doesnt mean to say they arent out there.

Confusion between ABS and TC I think - ABS is a liability on very low-grip surfaces, TC is very useful to a point.

Also, it's stability control (DSC/ASR devices) that use the breaks to help a car round bends when entering too quickly!


I think that a safe (engine wise) TC system for the FD would be a great thing - it means you can relax in damp conditions rather than clutching the wheel like it's a live snake! Many of the accidents we hear about are from 'application of power = sideways into scenery' events where TC would lessen or prevent the accident.

We're not all super-skilled racing drivers and we all make mistakes. I've had 2 moments where TC would have prevented mishaps but am lucky in that on ewas a low-speed spin on a roundabout and I caught the other (70mph step out on a DC) - that was mostly luck and a bit of skill.

TC has it's place and as long as you can turn it off for the drag strip and track-days then it's great.

Wish the Jeep had it too!

[DreXeL]

FD traction control - right foot.
FD stability control - arms.

Dont mean to sound like an ass - but IMHO if your worried about wheel spinning in the wet with your FD, you shouldnt have one. I bought my FD because its the last of its kind - a pure drivers car, one that requires skill to drive. MY favourite game is driving my car in the wet. If you want something that drives itself, get an evo or a scooby.



Amen to that :yes

[sdminus]

Im just gonna sit back and watch this thread coz i think its funny :rollin

carry on boys

Scott :spank

[Bobfish]

thread over i think :D

I will say that i did have some fun last night. Driving along a damp straight road from pullaway, changed into second...clutch all the way up, floor it. 2.5k rpm then the revs shot straight up to 8k...kept it planted and controlled it with the steering all the way up to 80 odd where the car regained grip.

IMO thats what these cars are all about :D

[rx7veilside]

cant blve there are some people still saying they can do this and they can do that like the way the back flips out/controlled it with the steering etc dont want to offend but driving with excessive speed kills..what if there had been a bit of diesel on that damp road flooring it to rev limit wld have seen u doing the wild thing.if someone wants traction control good luck to them if it stops them ending up in a ditch.sorry for sounding an old fart.the scrap yard is full of fd,s whos drivers thought thay were a bit handy in the driving dept

[Bobfish]

RX7Veilside...what are you saying about doing the wild thing if there was diesel on the road? i WAS doing the wild thing! I was wheelspinning and snaking up the road at 30mph. It was a STRAIGHT road, and the car spins in a straight line - the only thing that moves the back end is the road camber which can be accounted for by steering.

There is nothing that you can do, short of someone pulling out on you that is going to make a rwd car difficult to control when wheelspinning going in a straight line. Either you correct the snaking with the steering or you let off the gas and the back end snaps straight back in.

I dont do this sort of stuff all the time. Last night it was 11:30PM and there were no other cars on the road and it was in the middle of a deserted industrial estate.

Sorry if you dont like it, but im gonna do it anyway :oP If the car wasnt made to have fun like this, they would have made them 4wd.

Oh, and traction control will never end up saving anyone from a ditch! There has to be SOME amount of wheelspin for the TCS system to notice it, so the back end would have already snapped by the time the TCS notices, this is bad in some cases - would cause the back end to snap back so violently that it would send it flying the other way. The worst thing you can do in a drift (which i do alot of, but not on the road) is let off the throttle totally when your sideways.

[DreXeL]

But letting the arse get a bit jiggy when going straight is different to trying to floor it round a bend. It's the latter that puts you in a ditch.

[Bobfish]

and i dont mean to sound like an ass, but if you dont agree with what i say above about car control, you've obviously never driven a rwd car in that way; so please don't tell me how to drive and whats dangerous and what isnt. Granted, pootling around at 30mph is going to be "safer" but there is a difference between driving fast and driving dangerously. I am a very experienced driver and do this sort of thing on a daily basis pretty much, i know how to control my car, where the limit is and where not to push it!

[Bobfish]

But letting the arse get a bit jiggy when going straight is different to trying to floor it round a bend. It's the latter that puts you in a ditch.

I agree with you completely, but would you not agree that a complete loss of power to the rears when sideways would be WORSE than having the wheels spin?

Go out and try it, if you like, floor it up to a hairpin bend, stamp on the brakes until you are doing a suitable speed and turn in, come off the brakes when the back starts to go - then throttle it so you have a nice rear end slide. Now take your foot completely off the accelerator - i guarentee you will end up flipping back the other way, or worse - end up running wide off the roundabout and into said ditch.

[DreXeL]

I'm getting used to driving forward at a 20 degree angle whilst on boost in this weather, I just go with the flow ;)

I agree with you completely, but would you not agree that a complete loss of power to the rears when sideways would be WORSE than having the wheels spin?

Go out and try it, if you like, floor it up to a hairpin bend, stamp on the brakes until you are doing a suitable speed and turn in, come off the brakes when the back starts to go - then throttle it so you have a nice rear end slide. Now take your foot completely off the accelerator - i guarentee you will end up flipping back the other way, or worse - end up running wide off the roundabout and into said ditch.

Oh yeah I agree, I was refering to veilside's post, where he was basically saying you'll end up in a ditch by doing what you described in the previous post :)

[Bobfish]

and its damn good fun isnt it.

Do you agree with my above statement then? or no experience of it?

Seriously, i wouldnt recommend traction control, its false security. Id rather drive cautiously round bends rather than thinking i can floor it everywhere because i have TCS.

I would liken TCS to ABS - Its good for what its supposed to do (i.e stop wheelspin in a straight line/stop wheels locking when braking) but they are both liabilities in the wrong situation (when youve lost the back end/on low grip surfaces)

[DreXeL]

Do you agree with my above statement then? or no experience of it?



Yep, I agree completely, although I 'feather' the throttle to control the slide rather than floor it. In my experience flooring it just makes me do a 180 (might be something to do with the 1.5 way diff in my car?)

[Bobfish]

Yeah i only floor it in a straight line, you have to be careful when your sideways - throttle controls the angle of the slide, steering controls the arc of movement - you have to find a happy medium between the two. Give it too much throttle, and the angle of the car surpasses the angle of steering relative to the direction of movement and the only way to go is round round baby.

[Bobfish]

oh, and flooring it sideways at the wrong time is only ever going to make you do a 180. No diff in the world will prevent that :D

However, there are certain situations and speeds where you can floor it and get a lovely screaming smoking slide going :P dont hit the redline though, as this severly upsets the balance of the car (because the rear wheels slow down, which is exactly what TCS does)

[iaint]

I think that you're missing the point guys - Tim wants TC as he feels it'd be a nice backup/safety net in case things go unexpectedly squirrely. Nothing wrong with that.

I also agree that you shouldn't rely on driver aids to get you out of trouble. TC won't help you out if you enter a corner too fast or lift off suddenly mid corner when you're near the limit (lifting off mid corner is never an issue when well within the car's handling envelope). TC systems don't (as implied in an earlier post) kill all the power suddenly - clearly that'd be suicide - they reduce power to give the slipping wheel chance to get a grip.

If traction control is so awful why do F1 car have it? Why do all the seriously expensive cars have it? Why does almost every car released these days have it?

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the guys who no longer have their pride and joys due to a FD-scenery interaction would have been happy to have TC fitted if it made the difference between a dent and scrapyard...

Give the guy a break!

Iain

PS. I don't drive mine like a girl*, I get it out of shape sometimes - almost always intentionally, I've left the track at Silverstone doign 80mph, backwards. I know the cars limits and enjoy playing with them. Wheelspin is a great laugh and is a little mid-corner/roundabout drift. I do know what I'm taking about to a certain extent.

* Apologies to girls out there.

[Bobfish]

If traction control is so awful why do F1 car have it? Why do all the seriously expensive cars have it? Why does almost every car released these days have it?

For the same reason that 90% of cars are now FWD or 4wd. Because people are retards and cant drive. Too many people killed themselves in RWD cars, so they have to make it safer. TCS is an option for doing that. If you are really paying attention to your driving, then you shouldnt need it.

I understand what you say about him wanting it though, but IMO traction control is best kept as a manual job.

[iaint]

Interestingly - there's likely to be a move back to RWD cars as pedestrian impact legislation means that the engine needs to sit lower to make the bonnet a soft zone. This means no room for a diff in the front and therefore less fwd cars.

The main reason for cars beciming FWD in general is nothing to do with safety - it's almost 100% because the cars are much cheaper and simpler to produce and therefore more profitable for the manufacturers.

I do agree that many drivers are useless muppets but these people don;t drive their cars hard.

There are definately times when the conditions aren't great and I'm in the FD but not pressing on that the added safety net of TC would make things more relaxing. If you've got a 2nd car then use it when not hooning but many only have the FD and drive it for fun and mundane journies.

Concentration should certainly be high in the FD as it's got no aids other then ABS and no airbags and antiquated crash structures compared to modern thinking. That's why they're so pretty

[shez]

I actually own the car that Racelogic developed the system on and it is still fitted.

The car is still going strong, so no long term worries.

In my opinion, the system is great. I enjoy spinning the wheels and sliding the back end around as much as anyone. At the end of the day you can always turn the system off! I don't really use it in the dry, I agree that being able to control the car with your right foot is a challenge and very satisfying to master.

However, that said, when you are pulling onto a busy main road at rush hour in the wet, you can switch the system on and give it full throttle and it will give you the fastest (and safest?) possible launch.

I would say go for it and have the best of both worlds.

[iaint]

I actually own the car that Racelogic developed the system on and it is still fitted.

The car is still going strong, so no long term worries.

Thanks for your input Shez - it's this kind of useful info that is needed!

[TRex]

^ WOT he said....

Thank god. Well done Shez

[FD3SNuttah]

the traction control on my 323 fires the brakes too, as well as cutting the spark when i give it too much right foot. with it switched on i can throw it at any bend full wack and i will be very sure i will make it to the exit! It does hinder you when launching and it comes on auto when you start the car, you have to remember to switch it off if you want some fun.

In the wet it can still go sideways (if you are being an idiot), but i know that it will catch me and tell me to behave. If i have switched it off in the rain then its a totally different car, i have to be extra careful,

does the race logic have a TC function?

[iaint]

the traction control on my 323 fires the brakes too, as well as cutting the spark when i give it too much right foot. with it switched on i can throw it at any bend full wack and i will be very sure i will make it to the exit! It does hinder you when launching and it comes on auto when you start the car, you have to remember to switch it off if you want some fun.

In the wet it can still go sideways (if you are being an idiot), but i know that it will catch me and tell me to behave. If i have switched it off in the rain then its a totally different car, i have to be extra careful,

does the race logic have a TC function?

I think (although never owned a car with it som I'm not sure!) that you're confusing Treaction Contron (TC) with stability control (ASR, etc.). Traction control will limit the power to regain grip, the other systems do all sorts of clever things to help you stay on the blackstuff. It may well be all labelled under the same button but, imo, should be regarded as separate features!

AFAIK RaceLogic only does the power limiting side of TC.

[GeckoGareth]

Correct the RaceLogic system is just controls the power not braking.

Interestingly Autocar have review of the new 2006 Elise which now comes with TC. It's the same sort of system as the racelogic in that it doesn't brake individual wheels but monitors the (new) ABS sensors on the car to detect slip and cuts power accordingly. Autocar despite their usual very driver focused approach agreed that the system is really good an for everyday use they'd leave it turned on as it only cuts in when you get into trouble. This would be similar I guess to the RaceLogic system where you can allow a certain degree of slip up to 30% before the system cuts in.

Cheers

G