Ianetti Apex Seals

[Glenn Butcher]

I believe the ultimate apex seals are the Ianetti Ceramic seals (3mm) which have very good sealing properties and are very robust. Great for turbo and naturally aspirated engine applications.

Very expensive though - "You get what you pay for!".

Anyone know if there are other brands of Ceramic Seals? (apart from the ones Mazda used in the 787B at Le Mans).

[spanner]

Hello Glenn, can you tell me roughly , what's the cost of a set of 3mm Ianetti apex seals, also do they make 2mm as well ... and where can I get them , other than from Mazda.

[g11ary]

As far as Im aware (but matbe wrong) there are just the two manufactures of ceramic seals, the cost I belive is in the regin of £2000 a full set. 2mm only I think.

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi!

Ianetti seals are only available as 3mm in size. Gary is about right on the price. Carl Hayward (on the Forum) has mentioned that Mazda are actually starting to sell them in some countries.

They are made by a guy called Dr. Ianetti in the states.

[Carl]

The Ianetti seals are available from Mazda Competition parts dept in the States.
There are all sorts of variations available,
eg 2 mm,3mm,and either 1 piece or 2 piece.
I talked to Mr Ianetti the other day and he said that they could make them in 4mm or 5/6mm too.
The price for these seals is minimum of just over £1000.
What is their value you may ask?
2mm will handle about18 to 20 psi boost but can still break with very bad detonation. you must have an after market ECU to be able to prevent high boost engines from detonating.
3mm are able to handle up to 23psi boost and could still break with excessive detonation.
mr Ianetti said that if you had 5 or 6 mm seals then they would be just about indistructable.
Any of these seals in my opinion would be the best for a high boost engine because they have other good characteristics.
eg they are very light( as light as carbon seals) which could mean that if you do the other necessary mods to an engine then more revs are available,low wear on rotor housings.they are reuseable on rebuilds,the seals do not wear out to quick.And the tolerances
can be closer due to low thermal expansion.
hope that this is helpful
Carl

[spanner]

Thanks a lot guys for this valuable information. Now I know that once you have the right engine management to deal with the demands required and a good tuner to set and monitior fuel & igniton values , with Ianetti seals , the engine would really be a monster and a fairly durable one at that.
Thanks again for that informative info. :cool:

You guys can visit 2 local sites we have here in T&T (Trinidad & Tobago) it is

www.trinituner.com

www.trinispeed.com

[Glenn Butcher]

Originally posted by Carl
The Ianetti seals are available from Mazda Competition parts dept in the States.
There are all sorts of variations available,
eg 2 mm,3mm,and either 1 piece or 2 piece.
I talked to Mr Ianetti the other day and he said that they could make them in 4mm or 5/6mm too.
The price for these seals is minimum of just over £1000.
What is their value you may ask?
2mm will handle about18 to 20 psi boost but can still break with very bad detonation. you must have an after market ECU to be able to prevent high boost engines from detonating.
3mm are able to handle up to 23psi boost and could still break with excessive detonation.
mr Ianetti said that if you had 5 or 6 mm seals then they would be just about indistructable.
Any of these seals in my opinion would be the best for a high boost engine because they have other good characteristics.
eg they are very light( as light as carbon seals) which could mean that if you do the other necessary mods to an engine then more revs are available,low wear on rotor housings.they are reuseable on rebuilds,the seals do not wear out to quick.And the tolerances
can be closer due to low thermal expansion.
hope that this is helpful
Carl

CARL! I must appologise, I didn't think they were available in different sizes!!! Many many thanks for this excellent information.

[bnaellis]

Hi glen just a little more info with regards to Ianetti seals I found
Will you be using these on yopur 4 rotor ?? and why are you converting to left hand drive is this the only way you will have enough room ???
Regards

Brian Ellis

PS ( I enjoyed Bathurst lastnight, sham there weren't more rx7's, but them holdens are awesome.)

I don't mean to get off on a rant but...

Not having the resources to properly evaluate an engine component of this importance, I've deferred to the expert option two of Rotary Racing titans: Jim Downing and Rich Engman. They have directly expresses to ME their continued reliance on the benefits of Iannetti's seals in both Downing-Atlanta's three and four rotor racing engines. Admittedly, there is little concern in these applications for "Bang for the Buck," so if this a major considerations then you should probably look elsewhere.

Personally I installed one piece, 3 mm Iannetti seals in my first rebuild in 1997. I've since logged 9k miles (of which approximately 20 percent were during track/autocross events), and three engine refreshes (most oil system degradations.) Here is my anecdote perspective:

Strength: Little data - The seals have only seen one instance of severe detonation (during low tank fuel starvation) and there was no damage resulting. Dwoning ONLY uses one set of seals and housing for an entire season.

Longevity: Excellent Results - After having purchased all new housings during my initial rebuild, the peripheral rotor housings have had nominal wear. I project that at the current wear rate under harsh conditions, the long-term limits of my housing used in conjunction with ceramics will be sparkplug hole cracking (100k +) and not the usual chrome plating wear (especially corner piece grooving) brought on by the higher wear qualities of ferrous seals.

Compressions: Excellent - With a Pettit street port (a major vacuum/compression factor) my car idles (750-800 rpm) at 19" vacuum. I suspect this strong vacuum is the results of the wider and stronger Iannetti competition springs offsetting the one piece design's sealing inefficiencies.

Price: Forgetaboutit!

I've often wondered if I had a catastrophic failure of the ceramics seals, would I bite the bullet to purchase another set. After all, there are lots of other performance/reliability improvements that can be purchase with the money that Iannetti's would consume. But ultimate, I see that the daunting short-term expense is more than offset by the overall piece of (anecdotal) mind, long-term benefits, potential saving and in engine rebuilds at most, and housings at a minimum.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and I may be wrong!

More ceramic than a Lladro factory,
Carlos A. Iglesias

P.S. Now don't even get me started on ceramic coatings...




12-09-02 04:27 PM



CanadianRex
Exhaust Leak

Status: Offline!
Registered: Oct 2002
Location: Vancouver, CA
Posts: 33
Mazda used them in their race cars because of better sealing at high RPM back in the days of the 787B. The harder material allowed the use of a stiffer spring and the lighter seal did not "float" like a heavier seal will at high RPM.

You need to ask yourself the question if you would see a difference in anything but the most extreme application. I'm sure the 787B had a higher than 8000 rpm redline.




12-09-02 04:54 PM



j9fd3s
a little amazing!

Status: Offline!
Registered: Mar 2001
Location: sunnyvale, where they have both
Posts: 2869
the 787b had a redline of 8500? because they had to meet fuel consumption goals.

mike

[Glenn Butcher]

Originally posted by BNA_ELLIS
Hi glen just a little more info with regards to Ianetti seals I found
Will you be using these on yopur 4 rotor ?? and why are you converting to left hand drive is this the only way you will have enough room ???
Regards

Brian Ellis

PS ( I enjoyed Bathurst lastnight, sham there weren't more rx7's, but them holdens are awesome.)


Excellent information that you got a hold of here Brian!

Yes - the 4rotor will have these seals, probably 3mm at this stage. Yes - the engine is going to be mid-mounted so there will be a channel in the floor (right-hand side) to fit the intake and exhaust.

Thanks again for the info. - really good info.

.ps That Monaro at Bathurst is just crazy, it is making upward of 700hp they reckon. Would be great to see if they run it at Le Mans in the near future.

.pps Yeah :( more rotor's would have been great - but I somehow think next year the RX-8 will be there :)

[Grizzly]

I am thinking of buying a set for my new engine but what is the risk of blowing one?

Sounds a bit daft but i have been sent some pictures of an engine that droped a seal at 7000 rpm and its not a nice sight, it seems the apex is so hard it shatters and small particles go every where.

The guy who sent the Pics to me said he was running a 13B PP NA with 100 shot on NOS, when it went he was at WOT with the Nos off, But even he said they take alot of hammer as he personaly has Detonated it a few times on the rollers whist setting up and was suprised when it went.

I know its alot to do with Tuning but can the Ceramics be Cracked when Detonated thus Failing under alot of load?

I am intrested in your opinions as they are a lot of money and if this is a one off i'll be happy spending it, but i dont want to build a new engine and kill it at the first track day.

Thanks

Chris

[Glenn Butcher]

Chris,

This would be a good question for Alec Bell in New Zealand - you have his email address? if need be I can give you his phone number, he really knows his stuff and will be able to answer all your questions.

[Grizzly]

Glen, Thanks for that i'll let you know.

Chris

[Carl]

Hi Chris,
Sounds interesting what you are doing.
Ianetti apex seals are not immune to breakage from detonation but are able to withstand more stress than either stock or other steel seals.

When any seal breaks then the damage internally is always serious, ie- damaged rotors,and housings so the expense is always going to be there.Even carbon apex seals believe it or not damage the motors internals quite often when they break.

It could be that the setup on the motor that you mentioned was to blame as no engine likes to lean out as temps go through the roof. If you use Ianetti seals, Francesco(the designer of the seals ) has said that 3mm are better than 2mm and in high boost and nitrous applications 1 piece seals are stronger.May be the ones that blew were 2 piece 2mm?

Also if running nitrous he suggested that it enters the motor as far from the ports as possible so that the intake charge is not too cold.

If you used these seals then needed a rebuild after some time due to other parts wearing out then you could reuse them because the wear on them is negligable.
Francesco has told me of a naturally aspirated 13B running nitrous in Puerto Rico that has done over 500, YES 500 drag races and undergone 2 or 3 rebuilds in that time and is still using the same Ianetti seals.This engine is running at 13,000 R.P.M!
It is producing over 500 HP.

If I can offer any more help or advice on this or any other subject then you can contact me on my email -
rota110sman@yahoo.com

I have been doing rebuilds of rotaries for quite a few years now and have also built quite a few ported and competition motors.

[Grizzly]

To my knolage he was using 2mm 2pc seals but dont hold me to that.

So do they tend to Shatter?

I am thinking of using 3mm 2pc seals mainly due to the slightly better seal.

I supose the moral of the story is get it set up well dont Detonate it at all and every ones happy.

It's just going to be in the back of my head every time i give it WOT so i mat even drive it a little better. LOL

I have had the Hurley Experiance (Loosing corners 2pc) and it makes me think a bit before i comit myself.

Chris

[Glenn Butcher]

Originally posted by Carl
Hi Chris,
Sounds interesting what you are doing.
Ianetti apex seals are not immune to breakage from detonation but are able to withstand more stress than either stock or other steel seals....

....I have been doing rebuilds of rotaries for quite a few years now and have also built quite a few ported and competition motors.

Thanks Carl for the excellent information - again!

[Grizzly]

I have found this link if anyone is intrested.

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/apex_seals.html

BTW I love the Wood box they come in, Nice touch.

Chris

[Glenn Butcher]

Excellent Chris, thanks for this - really comprehensive information on there also.

[ScuttleRX]

Are the 'advanced carbon' iannetti seals advertised here (http://www.rotaryracing.com/rr_engine_parts_Rotor_Apex_Seal.htm) the ceramic ones that you have been discussing, or are they different.

Sorry if that sounded slightly dense but im not sure what the ceramic ones are made from, didnt know if they was some carbon in them hence the link referring to them as advanced carbon.

If they are different could someone tell me the pro's and con's between them

Cheers

Andy

[g11ary]

I believe they are the ceramic ones, they dont make two types of carbon as far as Im aware.

[Timrxmotors]

Iannetti seals,my favourite subject! I bought a set for my car,12A turbo,about a year ago.I never fitted them after seeing the damage to an FD engine when they break.I have now fitted them,because the mazda apex seals warped,the ceramic ones won't.I have done 1000 miles so far,my engine compression is low and has not changed in 1000 miles,still waiting! Has anyone done a comp. test with these seals,at what mileage.

[Carl]

It is important to use new rotor housings on these seals in order for them to bed in properly.
That way you get good compression after around 2000 miles of running in.
The compression should go up to at least 7 bar on 1 piece seals.
The 2 piece should see at least 8 bar.
I have received some correspondance today Tim, your new housings are on their way.

kind regards
Carl

[spanner]

G'day Tim & Carl,

I'm a good friend of Mack, in Trinidad. He spoke a lot about you two guys and Carl, I saw the side draught carbs he got from you as well. Tim, Mac has the Rx3 he bought from you down here now. Its got a little touching up to do but all in all, its a very original car. I will take a couple pics and send you both later on.
Till then take care mates..

Regards
Rana

[Carl]

Hi Rana,
Say Hi to Mac when you next speak to him.
That RX3 used to belong to me before Tim had it.
I hope the carbs come in useful.
Kind regards
Carl

[Timrxmotors]

Can,t wait for my new rotor housings,I want 7 bar compression!Has anyone done a comp test with the Iannetti seals?

[Robertio]

Originally posted by Timrxmotors
Can,t wait for my new rotor housings,I want 7 bar compression!Has anyone done a comp test with the Iannetti seals?

If there was anywhere up here that could do a comp test I'd get one done (when the car is back together) for comparison for you Tim, but unfortunately there's not. Only person I can think of on here who might have had one done would be Gary.

[Carl]

Hi Robbie,
I take it from our emails a while back that you are going to play with the power for TOTB3?
What are you doing?
Kind regards
Carl;)

[Schtoo]

and even a know nothing fool, but why would it not be possible to make ones own ceramic apex seals if one could find a suitable material to cut them from?

something like this (http://www.mcmaster.com/asp/DisplCtlgPage.asp?reqtyp=catalog&CtlgPgNbr=3353&sesnextrep=408620562123964&CtlgEdition=110&k1=8459K22&t1=PN&ScreenWidth=1280&McMMainWidth=1068#.) might be a suitable material.

It is kinda tough, kinda ok in high temperature and kinda light.

Kinda cheap too at about US$100 for enough to make at least 6 or seals.

I guess you might need to be kinda careful when cutting it, and you kinda need good quality diamond tools to do anything with it.

Maybe I'm just a kinda nutter that noone knows how to deal with too...

[Carl]

Hi Schtoo,
Nice to have someone from Japan on here.
you may be right to use these materials.
The high cost comes with the cost of machining the Iannetti ceramic apex seals.
It takes alot of hours to shape and polish them after they have been X rayed for defects.Then in each batch which are quite few in number they actualy test 1 or 2 to destruction.

Tell me something,is there any aftermarket Apex seals made in Japan?

Kind regards
Carl

[Timrxmotors]

I did another compression test today,at 1025 miles,it is lower!When I built phil goriahs engine with 3mm Iannettis it had over 7 bar compression,but that was with new rotor housings.Anyone else with comp. results on Iannetti seals?

[Carl]

So what do you attribute the lower compression too Tim?
It can't be the Iannetti's since they do not wear very much at all.
Do you think something else is wrong?
I think the new rotor housings will make alot of difference if the seals are still in good nick.
Kind regards
Carl
:)

[Schtoo]

Had a quick look at the one and only mag I have here, which fortunately covers "oobaahooru" (overhaul) of engines.

The have an in depth interview with 6 builders.

Fujita makes no mention of ceramic seals.

Some curly haired guy's shop had no mention of them. Didn't work out who this was, till I looked at the characters, Amemiya...

Some shop called Top Fuel has a pic of 2 seals.

The pic shows a * 2 piece ceramic. Not sure on what the kanji (Japanese character) means, but I suspect it's a Mazda part. The other seal is a domestically made 2 piece ceramic seal (I can read that kanji!). The domestic seal's corner peice is much longer than anything else I have seen. Normal corner pieces are a triangle, this one looks like it is a square and a triangle just to give you an idea of the pieces size.

Also many pics of 3 piece seals and similar parts. Also shows some of the special tooling used to get the seals to size and stuff like that.

Surprised by Amemiya though. The curly haired guy is out on the street with a hose and a die grinder doing ports...

The other 3 builders are Pan speed, Revolution and Knight Sports.

Rebuilds from these guys range from Y220,000-550,000 for a standard rebuild. Plus extra for as wild as you want to go.

Interesting, but completely useless if you can't read Japanese. I can't read as much as I would like, but I can make out enough to know what's going on.

No mention of prices in this book, but I haven't been looking for ceramic apex seals either.

[bnaellis]

I have read that using ceramic 1 piece 3mm seal with used rotor housing can take up to 5,000 miles to break in properly and to start seeing sensible compression. Apparently when using the 1 piece 3mm ceramic seal on used housing a harder spring is used to get better sealing to help overcome this issue.

rgds

[Timrxmotors]

very interesting! I am not going to wait for 5000 miles,that would be well after 'Rotorpop'at the end of May.Hope my new housings come soon.

[bnaellis]

:D Rotorpop
I hope your takinga truck full of gearboxes, diffs and engines then

rgds