Hurley Apex seals

[Glenn Butcher]

Carl,

What are your thoughts on Hurley 3mm Apex seals? I haven't heard too many bad things about them. Apart from a couple of cases where they have caused chatter marks.

I know this could be for many reasons, not enough oil through the OMP or pre-mix with the fuel etc..

Many people around the world have been using them successfully in high turbo boost applications for drag racing etc. - so they can't be too bad.

Your thoughts?

[Carl]

Have to be careful what i say but having seen a few engines pulled apart that have used Hueley i would say mazda saels are better, that would be my choice for a mildly modified engine.
For an allout high boost engine then Ianettis would be the route i would take as Mazda themselves not only approve of them but have used them in competition and even sell them.
Cheers Carl

[Grizzly]

sorry to butt in, there is a few problems with hurleys the Chatter is not good but i have had problems with new Apex's coming look good then failing very soon after fitting for no reason.

Before you say its a set up problem its not only me, i know at least 3 Tuners with the same problem and its happened on a stock car.

BTW this is 2mm's more than 3mm's but its happened on both types.

Any Opinions?

Chris

[alistair bridge]

thought i'd bring this one back to the top. Just lost compression on my back rotor and have a very tight (student) budget. I think i'll need three apex seals and a housing at the least. has anyone used hurley seals with good effect. they are cheaper than mazda seals...... i could do with details. one piece, twopiece 2mm 3mm double/single spring?....

Many thanks in anticipation.

forgot to say mine is an 89 N/A six porter. with free flowin exhaust (after i strip out the old one) and cold air induction kit.

[grinder]

alistair bridge : isnt that the 2nd gen you JUST bought ????

[g11ary]

Hope you dont mind my rant, but read the following and besides my opinion of Rotechniks and the way the dismissed the problem, the problem is probably caused by the 3mm hurleys they use...

SEE GARY'S FULL POST FURTHER DOWN


Ta Gary for that.

Be very intersted to see what the wear is like on the seals and the rotor housings when the engine originally from the Black car is pulled out.

Keep us posted mate.

[Fish]

Gary, thanks for also putting Simon's response up.

Dan

[alistair bridge]

yes it is the car i just bought for not much money, but it is a good excuse to take it to bits and do a bit of porting at the same time. looks in all like i'll be using mazda parts then, dammit there goes my budget for shiny bits and pieces. the car was sold to me as being a bit rough :rollin anyway so i'm not bothered. does anyone have a 13b street pot template they could lend me? or better still a half bridge?

i was going to go for 2mm seals any way. but has anyone wondered about the 6000 seals sold to date, does that mean 1000 unhappy customers? ceramics are definitely ot of the question (need six numbers first) do i have any other options?

Apex seals look like the most likely cause of my problems but i'm waiting for my haynes manual to arrive before i do any stripdown.

thanks for the warnings/advice.
:cheers
Alistair

sorry did you say 27k pounds. thats a lot... makes 2k for ceramic seals see like a snip.

[g11ary]

Before you settle on 2mm mazda seals, have a word with Carl, he can supply ceramic at less than the 2k you quote and in the long run will pay for them selves.

yes 27k im gutted, if only I knew now.:(

[alistair bridge]

think i'll stick with the mazda parts, i am impoverished student with a pocket full of coppers and a tin of beans to keep me going. When i finally graduate and get a job i'll be spending some serious money but as of now i just want to get it up and running, basically i need it to last about two years and 10000 miles. what are everyone's thoughts on just fixing the back rotor and leaving the front one as is? or does the whole thing fall to bits/leak if i try to do that.

Thanks for your advice good luck w/ your motor.

[Glenn Butcher]

:censored::censored::censored::censored: GARY!

I Edited your post instead of quoting!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Could you please post up again.

Sorry mate - what a dunce!

[g11ary]

Wrom: FVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUC
Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 10:57 am
Subject: Re: rebuild again.

Sorry to hear your news bud, I know exactly how frustrated you feel.

Yesterday had the day off work to get a compression test done at
Rotechniks.

The short story,
Just less than 1 yr ago, I picked my black rx7 up from rotechniks,
the car went to them for a compression test as I had bad starting and
had only just bought the car, knew nothing about rotarys and
Rotechnkis were the only company I had heard of to work on my car, I
had not even heard of fduk then, a true virgin. They had the car an
astonishing 6-7 months but because of Simons illness I felt really
guilty pushing or complaining, and add that I am delighted to see him
back on his feet. I spent approx 27k with Rotechniks and not once
quirried the cost of the rebuild as they were to deliver to me a 400
wrbhp car that and to use there words bomb proof engine.Fantastic.
They have never been able dispite asking several times form the power
graphs from power station that provided the rolling road. My car has
been on several runs up the pod and other venues, and to date Ant has
had a better time slip than myself with a car that is running stock
twins and just over 100bhp less than mine alleged figure. Im probably
just a crap driver.

The engine from my yellow car which I bought from our friend mr chan,
died after approx 3-4 week of me buying it so for convenience I had
the black engine transplanted into it, once transplanted Geff at
ReWorx said that she was running rough, had bad starting from warm
and low compression on both front and rear rotors, and suggested that
I have it double checked, so I took it to Rotechniks who built this
engine less than 8000 and ask them to do a compression test. The car
was tested and it was commented that the engine did not look good
because she was a bugger to start, it went into the garage and the
engineer said she would need a rebuild. Simon was at the front desk
and handed me the bad news, front rotor 5.6/5.4/5.6 rear 4.4/4.1/4.5
and confirm that a rebuild was needed. I then told him that it was
the engine from the black car and asked what should be done. There
was then an immediate change on Simons face and a lot of back
pedeling. With my no knowledge of rotarys and Simons experertise the
blame came straight back to me " it should have been built with
possibly ceramic seals and much stronger internals, and you did not
ask for them." No 27k later and now its my fault. When asked if this
refreash was to be done under warrentee, after telling me it would
cost approx £1500 but depending on damage and inspection once engine
stripped. He said that due to the high hp that my black car was
producing, (no proof ever produced after repeated requests) that
Rotechniks nor anyone else in the uk would warrentee such an engine.
When I said that Rotechniks had guarenteed me a bhp and warrentee, he
commented that it must have been a communications error, emm yes I
misunderstood.

Dude I feel for you, I know exactly how frustrating the rotary scene
can be, its a shame coz it is one hell of a car but a bag of :censored::censored::censored::censored: at
the same time, no wonder why so many people outside the rotary scene
give them a bad reputation.

Ho hum such is life.
Got to do some work now, got to earn another :censored::censored::censored::censored: load of money to
put it right. Shame I did not spend enough money in the first place
and get the proper spec.


Wrom: DDJBLVLMHAALPTCXL
Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [FDUK] Re: rebuild again.


For everyones information here are the details of the warranty on our
Remanufactered engines.
Our full warranty of 2 years/24,000 miles (whichever occurs the sooner)applies
to standard cars and in addition, to vehicles with the following modifications
and set up by us.
1.Free flow exhaust, including downpipe,cat replacement and free flow silencer.
2.Free flow induction kit.
3.Street porting.

In addition we offer a limited warranty covering our workmanship and
installation,but not the sealing grid of the engine on vehicles with the
following further modifications:
Uprated intercoolers
Uprated ECU`s
Single Turbos
Boost modifications etc

The reasoning behind this distinction is that we feel that however well an
engine is built if it is delivering significantly more power than it was
designed to do there is more stress on all the components and there is allways
the possibility that something can fail.

Gary Marks, Thank you for your kind thoughts re my recent illness both at the
time and expressed in your posting.
You did however omit to mention a couple of things we discussed yesterday,
firstly that when you explained that the engine was from your Black car I
pointed out that I was dissapointed that the compressions had declined after
8,000 miles .In addition I did say that I would think about the situation and
requested that you contacted me again before making any decisions.I am
dissapointed that instead of doing this you decided to critisise Rotechniks
publicly before giving us the chance to resolve the matter between us.I
encourage anyone with concerns to contact us direct.
As expressed to the club previously we allways strive to satisfy all our
customers.


Simon Kremer Rotechniks RX7 Specialists


Wrom: YRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCL
Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 5:11 pm
Subject: RE [fduk] Re: rebuild again.

Simon, I made public this matter as I felt that the way you disregarded
the warrantee was totally out of order, I was told that if Rotechniks
did NOT carry out the whole project I would have no warrantee, so your
company even ran the car in so as to fulfil your warrantee and all
servicing since. You were telling me the car wanted a rebuild until I
told you that was your black engine then after a lot of back pedalling
it now only needs a refresh. All this was witnessed by my girlfriend and
I only wish I had not waited for Dave Thompson who was in the reception
with us to go. You said to me that you would not cover the warrantee as
I did not ask and you did not build a stronger engine using ceramic
seals etc, not once did I ever query price and left Rotechniks the
experts to build me and I quote Ralph your employee at the time a bomb
proof engine, this said in front of other fduk members as well. You said
I should consider who would do the rebuild, I case I was thinking of
going else where and perhaps once I had made my mind up to get back to
you. Why? You either warrantee or engine or you don't. Yes you did say
you were disappointed that the engine had only lasted 8000 miles, but
not as much as I after wasting a day off work and 27k on a rebuild that
would not last as the engine was not built up to the correct standard.
Knowing that this was also an every day car, the build was also for a

car that was powerful but not unstreetable and the 400 rear wheel
figures that Rotechniks claim have never been proven, Perhaps I should
transplant the engine back into the black car before is finally dies and
have her rolling road tested. I have decided to keep this public as all
should see how honourable traders are within this small community. I
have decided that Carl Hayward will build the next engine and he has
confirmed that he will stand by his work, I am also consulting with
trading standards and a lawyer as to my next recourse, unless you fill
fit to pick up the tab from Carl for the freshen up and show the rotary
community that Rotechniks will back there service up.

[Glenn Butcher]

Thanks Gary - what a mess from me! :)

Here's me post anyway:

Ta Gary for that.

Be very intersted to see what the wear is like on the seals and the rotor housings when the engine originally from the Black car is pulled out.

Keep us posted mate.

[t2rew]

garry.
i have just read your post and i am in shock. i thought rotecnics were supposed to be very good at what they do but at a cost. what you are saying is there not that good at what they do and at 27 grand they arnt just expensive they are seriosly taking the :censored::censored::censored::censored:. i only phoned them once to find out how much a rebiuld kit cost, bearing in mind racing beat do one i thought the biggest british rx place would do one too. all i got was that it is a very complex engine and i shouldnt do it myself and they dont do a kit but if i told them each part they could supply it. no help atall really

i hope your probs are sorted out in your favor and maybe see you at brooklands

j

[bill shurvinton]

Being unusually careful here, but I only live 10 miles from those guys and i now only use them for oil filters and the like. But then again i have had bad experiences with EVERY rotary specialist between reading and the south coast.

I haven't yet used Carl, but I'm sure I will, and until then the only place I can recommend whole hartedly is Pip Gardner, so much so that I am happy to do a 450 mile round trip to get work done.

[g11ary]

wont be at Brooklands this year, have no choice, got to work, but hope everyone has a great time, and Im sure you can all pi** me off with some fantastic piccys :mad: :) :) :)

[Carl]

You've got to watch that Carl you know,he's a bit eccentric !
Regards
Mr Hayward.

[g11ary]

Guys just to keep everyone up to speed, I sent Rotechniks a mail off
list and it has been totally ignored, so unfortunately it is time to
take legal action, the engine will have to be stripped first which I
will document and report on, will post pictures of there porting and
rebuild and any damage caused. Will keep everyone updated as to any
progress as to whether I win or lose in court, and what the courts
conclussion is.

On a slightly different note, Rotechniks have invoiced me incorrctly
which anyone can make such a mistake. they have charged me for 2
injectors at £180 each but total them at £380 instead of £360 + vat.
I have spoken to Rotechniks and they now tell me that it was a
mistake as they should have read £190 each, I asked whose price list
they use and the reply was Simons price list, not a recommended
price list that I could see. Trading Standards have told me this is
illegal, I have mailed this to Rotechniks but again have had no
reply. Trading Standards asked if I knew of any other customers that
were unhappy with practices carried out by Rotechniks and said that
I did not know of anyone but would ask the question as they are
interested in talking to anyone who has a GENUINE complaint with any
company. If anyone else has had simular experiences the Reading
office would like to hear.

Finally to the people nameless that know of conversations had with
Rotechniks and were present at some of my trips to Rotechniks while
my car was under construction, can they kindly mail me publicly or
off line.

G11ARY

[bill shurvinton]

Sounds a little similar to my experience after buying the westfield. I took it in for a full service as it was not running right. 850 later it was still not running right, with a frightening rich bog when you tried to overtake.

They claimed to have checked everything but had not noticed the total lack of a fuel pressure regulator (a reason I would never deal with Geff Rance as an aside).

30 minutes on Pip Gardners rollers and I had 25% more HP and 30% more fuel economy.

A few weeks later I noticed that I had odd spark plugs 3 of 1 heat and 1 of another (all wrong for a stock port) I called and was told that the heat ranges were close enough that it didn't matter.

300 miles later the exhaust I had bought off them that was supposedly rotary ready had emptied out all of its loft insulation.

At this point I cut my losses and decided not to use them again.

[Glenn Butcher]

Thanks for keeping us posted Gary, and thanks also for your post Bill.

[Rx7-AIII]

:bandit

so is the problem with one type of Hurley seals or all of them?

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi there!

I have heard of a few bad stories with the Hurley seals, but I have also heard of a stack of good stories with them.

Might be hard for us to comment really, we have a few people who are Engine Builders on this Forum.

"Pip Gardner" and "Carl" - they should be able to supply some further feedback.

I think a lot of the problems with the seals may come with a lack of lubrication to them - I'm not 100% sure about this with the Hurley's. But I do know of cars running them with 500-800hp in the states.

Have a look on the www.rx7club.com Forum, do a search for Hurley and you will find a stack on information/opinions.

Or PM Pip and Carl direct.

[Grizzly]

Has anyone got/done the Hurley apex oiler mod? Just intrested to see if that makes a diffrence?

Chris

[Glenn Butcher]

Chris,

What is this? for the OMP? i.e. extra oil or something?

[bill shurvinton]

There is a check valve in the rotor itself so the apex seals are lubricated from within. Concept makes a lot of sense, especially if like me you can't use the standard oiler.

Bill

[Grizzly]

Ok,

What they do is drill small holes at the bottom of the Apex seal slots in the Rotors, they then fit some kind of jet (not 100% clear the size etc) in to the holes to govern the flow of oil.

I belive the idea is to supply oil directly to the Apex's while the engine is running which may solve the seal problems?

I personaly have never done it but it used to be on there web site.

Chris

[Glenn Butcher]

Hmmmm, that would make a bit of sense.

Maybe this is the chatter mark problem that some people are getting with them.

I'll have a read tomorrow on their site.

[Grizzly]

The thing is the Theory is sound, but i've not come across anyone thats done it? I feel they may get blocked rather easly?

Chris

[g11ary]

Guys, I said I would keep everyone informed of the progress with engine from the black car, I have reached a very generous off list settlement with Simon at Rotechniks, Simon has stood by his work and warrantee and a new engine is being built as we speak, I would like to thank Simon for the calm and professional way in which he dealt with my problem, the speedy conclusion, and happily, I hope both parties are now satisfied. For those out there with any problems, as I have found out, Simon and most others are most approachable and it pays to talk sensibly.
G11ARY

[bnaellis]

That's great news Gary. What ceramic seals did you go for?
2mm 3mm ? 1 piece 2 piece ?

rgds

[t2rew]

Originally posted by g11ary
Guys, I said I would keep everyone informed of the progress with engine from the black car, I have reached a very generous off list settlement with Simon at Rotechniks, Simon has stood by his work and warrantee and a new engine is being built as we speak, I would like to thank Simon for the calm and professional way in which he dealt with my problem, the speedy conclusion, and happily, I hope both parties are now satisfied. For those out there with any problems, as I have found out, Simon and most others are most approachable and it pays to talk sensibly.
G11ARY



thats great. it does seem to have turned around since the public hanging though

[g11ary]

3mm 2 piece, should pick her up and start the labourius running in on tues/wed

[Herblenny]

Sorry to butt in so late..

One of the enginer rebuilder is here in my town and see couple of engines come in.. And the builder told me that they were all Hurley seal engines... He definitely recommended to me to go with MAZDA OEM..

He even picked up one and broke it in half between his fingers.. telling me that they were weaker then stock oem.

[g11ary]

Have now picked her up and managed to do 2000 miles in a week. She is feeling might fine at the mo and cant wait for the rolling ses on thurs. Got high hopes for, although she is an everyday car so wont be like some of the monsters in oz but hoping for somewhere 400+ rwbhp. Also earlier said I was using 2 pc ceramic, actually running with 1 pc ceramics.
Will post again on Fri. Getting excited, Le Mans here we come 11th june onwards.